Episode 13: The Caldecott
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@davidhohn Interesting... It suggests the Caldecott specifically shows this bias, whereas other awards don't! I wonder why that is!
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@davidhohn I cannot say I have thoroughly investigated the matter but it is certainly a topic I've been involved with extensively when I was in science. In my department there were 6 women vs 81 men and there was a constant push to shift the ratio.
Which was really difficult, because I was also involved in recruiting and we had the same ratio in job applicants (about 5-7 men for every woman who applied for a researcher role). Why was that? There is a majority of women in biology studies (about 80%) and about 50:50 in chemistry. Were did all these graduates go? Well, that was easy to know: when you exit graduate studies at 28 (which is the rather standard age for advanced science careers), your first thought is having a family, not starting a career in research. And after that, the train has normally left: if you're out of science for more than two years, you're out (I, for one, could never go back). I started my family at 34, when my career was established - but that came at a huge cost, and I'm not surprised that not many choose that path.The tension between family care and job/achievements runs deeply throughout history: many of the women who accomplished great deeds in different fields never had children. To me, this is the biggest elephant in the room whenever we talk about gender parity.
There are some books that point to other deeper factors beyond discrimination.
"Listening to Prozac" by Peter D. Kramer, points to the fact that until about 100 years ago, the ideal of woman was that of a shy, homely person, content of staying at home and certainly never seeking recognition. It is only since the end of second World War that women have taken a more prominent role and are encouraged to seek "fame and success" outside of the home...that's not a long time to revert a couple of millennia of engrained gender roles.
"Sapiens" by Yuval Noah Harari points to the fact that more than 99% of human societies throughout history have been patriarchal. He doesn't give an explanation of why that should be, but it is a pretty striking homogeneity.There is also pretty substantial research about fundamental differences in the way men and women perceive the world. One aspect that I believe is relevant to illustration is that men have a much stronger perception of the 3D space (this is not discrimination: it's neural science at it has been demonstrated beyond doubt. It's probably a result of hunting behaviors). Drawing volumes definitely didn't come naturally to me! I do believe that women have to work twice as hard to get solid construction in their drawing than men do - but this is only my opinion, I don't have anything solid to support that with relation to illustration .
By all means, I think women and men should be handled equally in all respects and we should aspire to a proportional representation in all prestige positions and awards. But I don't believe that the juries of these awards willingly favor men, as I know that when we hired researchers we did not favor men: quite the contrary!
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Lots of great facts and thoughts here... exactly the kind if discussion I was hoping would emerge. There is always the fear when bringing up certain topics on the internet that people will start calling names and taking things out of context, etc. but I was pretty sure we could keep it civil here on the forums... I’m glad I was right
And yes, I am acutely aware of how having children effects ones career... I produce work at a snails pace because the majority of my time is occupied with two very small children. (I DO produce work though... that’s something, right??)
I hear milenniels are more interested in equal share of work both in the home and supporting the family financially—that would certainly be the ideal for my husband and I, but we aren’t there yet. Over time more businesses may accommodate that kind of work but most don’t yet. So really, it may just be a matter of time.
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In my management consulting work with non-profits here in Canada, there has been research that shows the majority of front-line workers and middle management are women especially in the 'caring professions' - nursing social work, counselors, etc. (80/90% F ) But as soon as you hit the most senior level management positions and/or more 'prestigious' organizations, there is a complete shift in gender profile - Almost 90% male executives and of course the difference in pay scale is cray cray.
I have seen this play out in so many organizations - even with the most open minded inclusive recruiting policies on the books There is a definitely societal bias supporting the belief that men will perform better at an elite level.
I wonder if that might be one of the dynamics at play in the Caldecott, Nobel etc. - the more prestigious the award is perceived, the more bias towards awarding it to men. Of course, the path is tough enough without these unspoken barriers and no doubt many women might decide it ain't worth the aggro.
Great discussion! -
@missmushy I don’t know if that relates to your point or not, but when I was at the top of my scientific career, I turned down two offers for senior leadership positions. The kind of job commitment and work hours connected to that kind of position would have meant that I would see my family even less than I already did (which was already little enough). I cannot exclude that one of the reasons I left science was to get out of that kind of pressure and expectations and give my children more of my time.
We have a 50/50 split in childcare and all home duties with my wonderful husband: it´s not a logistic problem. I just believe that women in general feel the pull of spending time with their children much more than men do....
My experience always makes me wonder whether the lack of women in leadership position is because there is a bias or simply because they don’t want to go there...As for the Caldecott, I really don’t know what the dynamic at work is here. One would assume that, given the large number of women in children publishing, they would receive a proportional or at least equal share of submissions (this would have to be investigated: maybe it´s the publishers who have a bias). Are there more children books by men or by women out there? Looking at my shelf it looks like there are way more men, especially author/illustrators (which comes as a surprise to me, I didn’t expect that!). But maybe that´s my taste. Or maybe books illustrated by men are overall more successful. Does anybody have data about that?
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@nessillustration You don't try to change it. You use it to make yourselves stronger, then you bright so powerful than you change things everywhere around you without trying
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@davidhohn Thanks for the info I didn't know about that award
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Another great episode! I particularly took note of the part about graphic design as a consideration.
My teachers introduced me to Caldecott books early in life, and I had a librarian relative who had a collection of Caldecotts and other great books in her home and later became very involved in the ALA. I'm pretty sure she has something to do with my interest in illustration to this day--Not to mention that when I attended her middle school, she worked out a deal with the gym teacher so that I could skip volleyball to draw book cover posters!
P.S. @Lee-White Can't never could!!! I haven't heard that in years! Welcome back to the South.
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This was very interesting to listen to! I am not sure if somebody else talked about it, but I am curious if the Caldecott award is only for books from U.S or if it is global award
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@jonas-zavacky The Caldecott is only for US books, but the NYTimes Best Illustrated Books Award, which is gaining traction, is for books from any country. Those are the main US children's book awards I know about, but there are also others for other countries.
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@lauraa @Jonas-Zavacky There are other prestigious awards for illustration in other countries. Look earlier in this thread for my initial list. And please add in any that you are aware of. (Maybe this would be a good topic for it's own thread?)
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@davidhohn I know there is the Andersen here in Italy and there is the Greenaway for illustration in the UK. The Andersen has various categories, as I understand it, that cover both writing and illustration, various age groups, comics, wordless picture books, and even a digital prize (not sure where the digital part comes in, but I think maybe it's for ebooks). And it seems that authors from other countries are considered, though perhaps for books translated into Italian.
Here's a link to this year's winners: http://www.andersen.it/premio-andersen-2018-i-vincitori/
If you want to make another thread about it, feel free to copy and post this!
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@lauraa Thanks! I updated the list add Kate Greenway and to correct what I initially posted about the Hans Christian Anderson award.
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@lauraa I, too, was introduced to the Caldecott at an early age. I have a very specific memory of being in the basment of our house with my mom on the couch. She was going to read me the Ox Cart Man by Barbara Cooney, but before starting she she pointed to the gold medal on the front. "You see that, Sarah? That is the Caldecott medal. They give that to the book with the very best illustrations in it."
I was still quite young (young enough to enjoy my mom reading picture books to me.) But it really stuck, obviously. My mom claims to have intentionally raised an illustrator, though.
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Fun listening to this podcast.
I think competitions and awards have an interesting effect on us all. When we win we feel great. When we lose we wonder what we have done wrong and if we are even wasting our time.
The brief speculation you guys indulged in that there may be a political aspect to the voting is probably true but only to a certain degree.
Winners almost always have produced great work. The fact, however, is that many losers have also produced great work. Take the monthly competition featured on this forum. Great work always rises to the top. But, great work also seems to go unrecognized.
Were the zeroes in the last contest all completely unworthy? The danger is in the discouragement those zeroes left in their wake. The deflated pride of all those who garnered zeroes probably stung pretty bad.
The consolation is in the immense list of those great artists who went unappreciated even while producing magnificent work.
Vincent Van Gogh is revered today. He is considered to be one of the most influential painters of all time. But, his work received little to no recognition during his lifetime.
Paul Gauguin was not appreciated until after his death. Today his paintings could sell for as much as $39.2 million a piece.
Claude Monet is one of the greatest painters of all time. His work was rejected because it went against the traditional style and method of painting of his time.
And the list goes on.
To me, the three of you (Will, Lee, and Jake) are incredibly gifted. The fact that you have allowed your knowledge and guidance to be the gentle hand that offers encouragement and guidance to usher the artists in this forum to their next level of accomplishment deserves an award that far surpasses the honor which the Caldecott bestows upon its recipients.
Perhaps there is no gold medallion or embossed sticker you can put on your mantle or the cover of your next book. Perhaps there is no "bonus" check, no bragging rights, and no red carpet event.
But, somewhere out there, you have extended your hand to a young artist who needs that helping hand. You have given confidence to a fragile soul bursting with talent but unsure how to nurture it. You have given courage to a young student bullied for an interest in art in a world obsessed with touchdowns and home-runs.
I hope you all win those awards that define accomplishment.
But, know that you are already greater than those awards. And your work is as magnificent as those who have won those awards as well as those who walked away with a zero.
- Larry
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@davidhohn Oh, I hadn't even seen that post for some reason, so I went back and looked at it.
I'm pretty sure that the Italian Premio Andersen and the Hans Christian Andersen award are two different things. The Italian one is given by a children's literary magazine called Andersen and was established in the early 80s. The Hans Christian Andersen was started by IBBY in the 1950s, according to the linked article. The point of confusion, of course, is that Andersen is such a legendary name in children's lit! (So to speak.)
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@larry-whitler AGREED!!! I second everything you just said. Perfect.
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@larry-whitler I cannot upvote your post enough.
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Awesome episode. I learn something new from every episode. They should have a Caldecott - Cons.
Imagine that... just like comic cons, a convention for children's book illustrators and writers where you could promote your own book or artwork.... Maybe we could create an online version of that for fun once a year...
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@geoffrey-gordon Check out SCBWI, they have two huge conventions for that purpose every year and many smaller local ones.