How bad is this, really?
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Hello everyone,
I’m working with an author to figure out the best layout for this spread. The idea is that the boy is shocked to see his favorite tree being cut down. The author literally cut and pasted one of my sketches to achieve this image.
This is his favorite pose so far (an over-the-shoulder shot with the boy’s arms outstretched). I think it has potential too and seems like a natural pose for the kind of reaction we’re going for. However there are a number of things I don’t like about the spread and I’d like to come up with an alternative that we can both feel good about.
My big question is, how bad is it to have the kid’s arm going across the gutter? This seems like a big no-no to me, but I’m open to learning from other people’s perspectives.
The second thing I don’t like is the bulldozer looking like it’s heading for the boy’s head.
I’d love help brainstorming if anyone is willing to share ideas.
Many, many thanks!
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@kathrynadebayo As far as the pose goes, you could move him a bit to the other side and have the gutter hand going up to his mouth. That way you could avoid the gutter. But I'm thinking about how many times I've heard people say that a character shouldn't have his back to the viewer. I think we need to see his expression!
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I personally like the over the shoulder view. If you have enough views of the character from the front throughout the rest of the book its probably fine.
However the crossing gutter is not. My initial reaction would be to throw the hands up to the cheeks in horror, but it could be confused as covering the ears, but I think as long as the ears are clear it should read fine. -
@kathrynadebayo said in How bad is this, really?:
My big question is, how bad is it to have the kid’s arm going across the gutter? This seems like a big no-no to me, but I’m open to learning from other people’s perspectives.
I'd suggest you start by interrogating your compositional instinct.
Why do you feel it's a no-no to have the arm going across the gutter?To be clear, I'm not saying your instinct is wrong -- just want to know where this rule or guideline (call it what you want) is coming from.
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@davidhohn Thank you for this very helpful reflection question, David. I think my worry is that the arm will appear distorted or shortened if the pages don’t lie flat. I’ve seen artists pull off characters crossing the gutter before, but I’m curious if they know ahead of time that their book will have a lay-flat binding. This sketch is planned for a print-on-demand perfect bound book. Thank you for your comment.
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@lauraa Hi Laura! Thank you for this wisdom!! I think you’re right about seeing the boy’s face!
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@asyas_illos Hi Asya! Thank you for the great ideas. I have done an iteration of this with the boy’s hands on his head, so maybe I will revisit that.
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Here are some other ideas that the author hasn’t liked as much but that give context to the process we’re engaging in together.
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@kathrynadebayo Wow, these three are great! I Really like the first one...it is kinda perfect.
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I also like the first one in your alternatives. I remember a photography teacher telling us never to crop people at joints so if you did put an arm across the gutter at least it should be moved so it's not at the elbow, but I really like the alternatives better anyway.
Laurie DeMott
instagram.com/demotlj -
I really like the 3rd. There’s more action and depth and emotion in it. I can see the boys urgency, the perspective is great and it doesn’t look like the boys head is going to be attacked by a mini digger.
On the part of the side note… is a hanging star crucial to the story line? It would seem out of place to me to have a hanging star. I would sooner lean to a particularly shaped branch, or a carving in the trunk, or a birdhouse. Does the text explain why this tree is his favourite? Or is it in the authors notes?
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@kevin-longueil Hi Kevin! Thank you for the feedback!
@demotlj Hi Laurie! Thank you for this advice. What about cropping at the waist like in option 3?
@AngelinaKizz Hi Angelina, thank you so much for your opinion. The third is also my favorite (though I'd be happy with number 1 too) because all the lines of the image on the left point to the tree cutting scene on the right. It seems pretty dramatic.
And thank you for bringing up the star thing! Yes, it has become a bird house.
Maybe I'll bring these options up again and we can just choose one instead of continuing to make more sketches.
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@kathrynadebayo I like all 3 of those better than the one the author wants.
I guess it’s one of those circumstances where someone who isn’t an art director is art directing things into a corner. I personally don’t like limbs in the gutter even if you can get them to lay flat. It’s awkward when you turn the page. My kids have seen a few books like that and it becomes a joke… “look I’m breaking their arm!!! Gahhhh!” -
@demotlj said in How bad is this, really?:
I remember a photography teacher telling us never to crop people at joints
Did the instructor tell you why?
I recognize that this is essentially the same question I asked @KathrynAdebayo , but I think asking it is really important.
You get advice/rules like this quite often from instructors who, I'm sure, offer it with the best intent. They want to help you make "better" work.
But the definition of "better" is so subjective!
Throughout the history of art there have been so many "rules" that have been successfully broken that I'm not sure there are rules anymore!Rather I think there are "guides" that usually -- but not always --work.
More important is the artist's "intent". What does the artist want to say, or have the viewer feel as they look at the image. And whether or not the choices the artist makes reinforces or distracts from their intent.
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@davidhohn I love that you're pointing this out.
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@davidhohn He said that cropping a picture at the joints would make people think of amputees which would cause a visceral negative reaction. I don’t know if he’s right or not because once he said that, it stuck in my mind and now I definitely can’t see that kind of cropping without thinking of amputees. Whether it’s the fault of the cropping or the fault of the professor for planting the idea in my head, I don’t know.
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@pamela-fraley Haha, oh my! I suppose that could be a really interesting intentional element to a book (maybe origami or something, not breaking arms!!). I'm trying to take in what I'm learning from @davidhohn and not be dogmatic by saying that arms in gutters will never be an option for me after reading that.
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@pamela-fraley said in How bad is this, really?:
[...] It’s awkward when you turn the page. My kids have seen a few books like that and it becomes a joke… “look I’m breaking their arm!!! Gahhhh!”
I was just thinking that this would be an effect of putting a joint on the gutter like that.
And for the right book project it's perfect!
Of course for the wrong book project it becomes a grotesque distraction.I love identifying these effects in picture books, because I can store them away in my idea bank to pull out to achieve the effect I want. (Now I'm seriously looking for an opportunity to "animate" my illustration by carefully placing something important right on the gutter!)
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@davidhohn This has me thinking too .... flapping wings, folding paper, giant mouth opening and closing, dangerous objects breaking before they can inflict damage, fingers closing onto something in the palm of a hand... it's giving me There's A Monster At The End Of This Book vibes where the character speaks to the reader about the effect that the turning page is having on the story.
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@davidhohn, I've heard similar advice from photography instructors. I think it's because it looks awkward when you put a break at certain points in the body (and more pleasing at other points). It can also draw attention to the edge of the photo / frame instead of the subject.
So, I suppose if you were trying to create an image with dissidence, you could purposefully crop the image that way. But this would be a rare case, and an example of "you have to know the rules before you break them". Photo instructors are mainly teaching how to create beautiful images & pleasing portraits.
