Art by Liz Orton
Should you post work-in-progress that you’re trying to publish? How do you get work when you start out? And how do you deal with the fear of success when a publisher shows interest? This week, Jake Parker, Lee White, and Will Terry discuss the answers to these questions, as well as giving us a candid look into their ideal rock-band karaoke tributes (Only on Youtube!)
Painted this vampire today
@kylebeaudette So I listened to today's podcast as well.
Can I assume this post is in reference to the comment made at 17:46 about putting copyright info on work that's posted online? I recognize that in the post above you are exaggerating the point being discussed -- but that's not going to stop the soapbox I'm about to climb up on.
I'm going to use the "you" in the following post to mean all illustrators and not you specifically.
The idea that it's not necessary or even considered "amateurish" to put your name on the work you post to your website or social media is mistaken.
Instead ALWAYS PUT YOUR NAME ON YOUR WORK
It is the height of professionalism and is required in the internet age we live in.
Think about it this way -- later in the question Jake references this quote:
"An artist's worst problem isn't piracy, it's obscurity"
What could be more obscure than putting your work out on a social media site -- a place that is designed to share work around -- WITHOUT YOUR NAME‽
As with all things there is a balance to strike.
Should you plaster your name across the image in a way that obscures the illustration?
No, of course not.
Should you not put any kind of credit or contact information on your image at all, because "the pros don't do that"?
No way! Take credit for the amazing work you create!
I know first hand that an art director who comes across your image on Pinterest, or Tumblr or reblogged on Instagram etc. and sees "
YourName.com" (or some reasonable variation thereof) clearly posted on an image , rather than being put off, will instead thank you for it! Ideally by contacting you with a project.
@davidhohn I haven’t listened to the episode yet so I don’t know if this was mentioned but what goes through my mind when I add my copyright and signature — “someone may photoshop it out” 
But that’s the reality of the Internet.
Another thing I keep in mind is making sure not to add my copyright/sig too close to the edges of an Instagram post. This is in case someone uses the Repost app to share my image where the app adds the original poster credit along the sides. Of course, it would be my name displayed but after a while (if I’m lucky to go as viral!), it can be changed. Paranoid and overthinking, I know
Not sure how adding copyright or your name makes you come across as amateurish. At least your name. After all, the great painters signed their work, too.
Looking for ward to listening to the episode tonight. The podcast is always a highlight for me.
@davidhohn
Yes, my picture was a joke exaggerating what some people do with their art 
I understand what you're saying about signing your art, but I'm talking about the people that put huge watermarks/massive signatures and a date/ruin the image with copyright info.
I agree with what they were saying on the podcast, that it is often 'the mark of an amateur'. Someone draws a flower for 20 minutes, then writes copyright info all over it or even a huge signature and date. Instead of a nice flower, I see their ideas of grandeur and paranoia.
I was teaching social media skills to senior-citizen artists (some of whom were quite good, having had one-person gallery showings, or bringing in a few thousand per painting, or having demonstrated internationally), but we kept getting held up on adding copyright. GIMP intimidated them. Instead, I had them neatly cut strips of Denril, sign their names on the strip, and photograph their work with the Denril strip laying on top.
@danielerossi I marked the time in the episode that the issue is raised. It's at the 17:46 minute mark. So you can check it out.
I want to acknowledge that this is not the point or even the focus of the question; the issue of including a copyright symbol in the bottom corner is only raised in passing, but it is a criticism that I've seen often in the illustration community. Usually with some variation of the opinion: "Including a credit line isn't needed, or is unprofessional"
One of the things that I like about the 3PPodcast is that it's directed to new illustrators. So clarifying an incredibly important point like this is better done sooner than later!
but what goes through my mind when I add my copyright and signature — “someone may photoshop it out”
It sure is the reality of the internet! There's no way to completely protect your work from being infringed or stolen. But by the same token, I lock my car each night. Sure a window could be broken or it could be stolen in the morning but I still do fairly easy and reasonable things to make sure I protect my property.
making sure not to add my copyright/sig too close to the edges of an Instagram post. This is in case someone uses the Repost app to share my image where the app adds the original poster credit along the sides. Of course, it would be my name displayed but after a while (if I’m lucky to go as viral!), it can be changed.
This doesn't seem paranoid to me -- it seems smart!
I don't think that most people on the internet are looking to deny creators their credit. They just aren't thinking about it! A repost app is trying to make it easier to maintain credit but as you point out, the design of the app isn't foolproof. No reason not to make it a bit easier for future fans!
I agree with what they were saying on the podcast, that it is often 'the mark of an amateur'. Someone draws a flower for 20 minutes, then writes copyright info all over it or even a huge signature and date. Instead of a nice flower, I see their ideas of grandeur and paranoia.
Fundamentally I agree with you (see my earlier response).
The trouble is that what you've described above isn't what was described in the podcast. Will referenced a "big copyright "c" in the bottom with their signature"
I want to be fair and not pick on Will here. It's possible that in that brief comment in this one podcast he was picturing what you describe.
But a new illustrator trying to make their way in this industry likely would not.
A new illustrator would hear "pros don't do that".
That new illustrator, looking for clarification, might head over to Will, Jake or Lee's Instagram pages. There they would find multiple posts with no credit line at all!
This is a mistake.
Maybe the guys have a good reason not to include a credit line on work posted online. I've yet to hear it, but I'm always open to a reasonable argument.
My opinion and personal experience is that posting work online with no way to link the work back to the OC is bad advice for an illustrator starting out in this industry at this time.
@Jake-Parker @Will-Terry @Lee-White oh no, I was listening and wanted you to continue so bad! I guess every nice moment needs to end eventually... but thank you guys for making illustrator’s live somewhat less lonely. 
I had a work colleague who referred their mother, a working photographer, to photograph their sports team. There was contention when the mother insisted on having her signature on the digital prints. It’s a position I empathize with but also question its practice in contemporary times.
Ensuring credit remains on an artwork could be resolved by embedding metadata or adding either a visible or camouflaged QR code. Other than copyright, an artist can choose to include their business address, website URL, keywords, etc in this format. But, I acknowledge the artist wouldn't be immediately visible to the viewer.
Some illustrators have adopted creative alternatives to identify their work and circumvent art thieves. A few of my favorite comic book cover artists have incorporated their brand logo in the image (the graphic on the character's clothing, store signage, etc). Some like to insert their brand mascots or self-portraits into crowd scenes. One can also incorporate their signature in a texture, ie a cat’s fur. It would be so boss if one could hide their signature with the anamorphosis art technique.
@willicreate
My position is not that a credit line is included to stop thieves
Rather, a credit line is included to make it easier for art directors, clients and just general fans to find you.
A credit line is promotion.
A credit line is branding.
A credit line is how a new illustrator rises from obscurity.
I had a work colleague who referred their mother, a working photographer, to photograph their sports team. There was contention when the mother insisted on having her signature on the digital prints.
I am sympathetic to this position. When a client pays me for a project I willing to consider not including a credit line. It is not my first choice, but if a client had a good reason and the compensation was appropriate I would be open to discussion.
What is a mistake is to put work out there that is designed to generate new project leads without including the ability for a new client to contact you!
Some illustrators have adopted creative alternatives to identify their work and circumvent art thieves. A few of my favorite comic book cover artists have incorporated their brand logo in the image (the graphic on the character's clothing, store signage, etc). Some like to insert their brand mascots or self-portraits into crowd scenes. One can also incorporate their signature in a texture, ie a cat’s fur. It would be so boss if one could hide their signature with the anamorphosis art technique.
All of this is super fun. I am a fan. I love an easter egg or hidden message as much as the next guy, but it is a separate issue from including a credit line with the goal of encouraging client to contact you.
I enjoyed the podcast, but I’m a little disappointed in the amount of time given to what was in the title. I came away feeling like it wasn’t even addressed. Did I miss something?
I’m noticing that the description of the show specifically talks about fear of success after being approached by a publisher. I’d love to hear more from you three about that, as I’ve experienced it firsthand and still don’t know what made me sabotage myself.
Several years ago I sent a dummy out and landed an interview at [Big Important Publishers], who loved my story and style. All I had to do was finish the manuscript. Oh, and they wanted to ramp up the colors, which I was certainly willing to do. Somehow I convinced myself it wasn’t worth doing and my writing froze up completely, and I ended up taking a job at an art supply store because my parents were tired of supporting me and out of patience. Not sure why they thought spending a fortune on art school and then not helping me survive while I found my footing made any sense, but it is what it is.
The fact that my folks didn’t seem particularly excited when I told them I’d gotten callbacks from real, actual bigshot publishers who wanted to publish my book kind of messed with my mind at the time. I’ve had a lot of therapy since then, LOL, so hopefully I’m better prepared now.
I’d love to get ahead of the self-sabotage issue before it rears its ugly head again (I am currently preparing a dummy to send out) and am wondering how to stop destructive impulses before they start. Maybe too “big” of a topic for a forum, but I trust you guys and figured I’d ask.
@RachelArmington said in How To Deal With Fear Of Success:
Not familiar with Denril, but a quick search suggest that it's a translucent paper of some kind?
That makes perfect sense! Quick easy way to add a credit line/contact info to physical media images.
And I'm reminded of how I developed this credit line/promotion position in the first place:
Years ago I was a newbie illustrator making work and putting it out on the internet.
Online websites had replaced physical portfolios as the way to contact AD's. And you didn't put your name on every image in a physical portfolio! So I didn't put it on every image on my website.
One illustration I created was my interpretation of "The Little Dutch Boy" tale. I created the image posted it to my website and . . . promptly forgot about it.
On to new and better things!
Well, about 10 years later I get an e-mail from a company that wants to relicense the image for a promotional brochure campaign. They had a budget of $5K.
Needless to say I was more than happy to do the deal and license the image for this use!
But -- this was just a self promotional image that I had only ever posted to my website.
My old website.
A website that was no longer even up. (having been replaced multiple times over)
But the domain name was still the same!
I asked the client how they found me. The client sent me the jpeg they had on file.
It was a horribly tiny little image that had clearly been wandering the net from some time.
But some beautiful
, wonderful
, gracious person
had blatantly plastered a white box in the lower left corner with the word "www.davidhohn.com" in Times New Roman bold black type.
Graphically hideous.
Financially beautiful.
And from then on I've included the line "davidhohn.com" on every image I post to the web.
Well, I disagree.
I dont think it's a mistake to not include your name on every (or most) of the images you put online. I'm posting my stuff on Instagram or Twitter, and when art directors see it/like it/comment on it they can clearly see I made it by clicking my profile. I think my work is more shareable because it is a clean image of a character (or whatever) with no signature. Art feels... different when it's signed for that purpose. You feel the artist grasping to retain 'rights' or whatever. I don't know, it just really think it takes away from the feel of the piece. Not to everyone, but certainly to me. Those shares I get on those platforms are worth more to me than someone finding it on Pinterest or Google images and wondering who I am.
Will I lose out in the scenarios you describe? Yes.
Will I gain on the scenarios I'm describing? Yes.
So I wouldn't call it a 'mistake', but maybe more like a choice.
@kylebeaudette
That's cool. You do you!
The great thing about this career is that there isn't one way to do it.
My goal in this thread is to bring up points of view that aren't being discussed fully on the podcast.
Thanks for participating!
@mag I tend to enjoy listening to banter on podcasts and for some reason, I was on the edge of my seat listening to the burger discussion.
@danielerossi Exactly! And that's why the 3 point perspective podcast is the best podcast ever! You learn something about art, dogs, slides, burgers, everything! 
How to deal with fear of success? Listen to the Creative Rebels Podcast episode "Believe in your f***ing Self with Jamali Maddix. As the title suggests there is a little (a lot) of swearing in this episode so don't listen to it with kids around. That said this particular episode is always what I listen to when I need a bit of a pep talk. https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrbVKu/
@Randi-Gordon I’m a few months behind in my podcast-listening, so I haven’t listened to this particular episode yet. But…
You’ve probably heard about imposter syndrome (which can lead people to self-sabotage) as there has been so much discussion about it the last few years.
Specific to what you’ve written though: Have you ever revisited the dummy you submitted to the publisher? Were you comfortable with how you handled everything? Was there a page turn or transition or anything else that you felt you hadn’t exactly nailed as well as you would’ve liked? Have you considered just reworking and submitting it to other publishers?
Sometimes intuition kicks in and we instinctively make the right decisions even if the logic behind it doesn’t come for years after. As far as the publisher that interviewed you, were they asking you to change what you considered to be a wordless picture book by adding text (you said you hadn’t written a manuscript for it). Or was there anything during the interview that might have turned you off a bit towards them (i.e. spinach in the art director’s teeth)?
Even just getting so much feedback from a publisher is a success.
Your success isn’t contingent on how much or how little you family supports you. It may be a struggle emotionally, but in the end it’s up to you.
Plenty of meat to chew on in this episode. Personally, I think being successful as an illustrator (by the measures most of us define "being successful") is part of what I call "interesting problems to have". Most of us are more likely to suffer from the exact opposite, the 'weekend artist' syndrome and not getting enough traction on social media...
The more time you spend on this field, the more you realize the Field of Dreams fantasy ("build it and they will come") won't happen just because. You need to make people out there be aware about you — and that takes much more work than you think.
Networking, making friends and acquaintances in the business has always been and still is key — something that in these pandemic times has been a lot harder to come through, admittedly. From that point of view I miss live trade events, festivals and the like — they are vital to sharpen your networking skills and to learn how to sell yourself.
If anything, rather than fear success I'd fear not being ready to seize the moment when (or whether) it comes.
In regards to copyright: I agree everything we upload to the Internet should feature our name and contact info somehow. Not because of paranoia of my art "being stolen" but because once you publish it into cyberspace you never know which ways will your artwork take, or how it will end on the eyes of a prospective art director or well-heeled client. This said, I don't always remember to do this 
but maybe I should, specially on my original art. For original character designs I care enough about, I try to copyright them for my own peace of mind and to secure IP down the line.
Art by Liz Orton
Should you post work-in-progress that you’re trying to publish? How do you get work when you start out? And how do you deal with the fear of success when a publisher shows interest? This week, Jake Parker, Lee White, and Will Terry discuss the answers to these questions, as well as giving us a candid look into their ideal rock-band karaoke tributes (Only on Youtube!)
