New possible CB client

bharris

@Lynn-Larson Thanks for your feedback. You're right, even though being new makes me feel like I ought to be flexible, I should know what I'm not willing to compromise on.

I will defiantly let you know!

Lee White

I highly recommend avoiding self publishing authors. They rarely work out for a number of reasons.

They aren't trained as an art director and have no idea how to work with an artist
They pay way below industry rates in exchange for "more money once it's selling"
The stories haven't been vetted and typically aren't professional quality
They don't understand how the business works and have little to no plan of distribution
They don't understand all the costs involved. More on that:

Typically there are quite a few parts to being a self published author. The EASY part is getting the book made. The hard part is selling the book. This requires an actual business and marketing plan. Most authors tend to over value their work and think as long as it gets made, it will do well (cause, you know, it's awesome!). But, it doesn't typically work that way. Most self publishing projects rarely see the light of day, and the ones that do die on the vine due to no plan for distribution.

So IF you must work with an author. Demand a LARGE upfront payment, royalties on the back end, and ask to see the business plan for sales and distribution.

If you are wondering what a "large upfront payment" (advance) would be, I'd start here:

If you, the artist, are unpublished: $7500-$12000
If you have 1- 5 books: $12,000-$20,000
If you have over 5 books: $25,000+

Hope that helps. : )

mattramsey

@bharris said:

he's been through several people attempting to illustrate his book, but none have worked out

"My book is pretty long, maybe up to 40 or so illustrations ... I think it needs a lot of detail and is a bit complex,

Run.

Run screaming.

Seriously though, so many red flags. He has no idea even the basics of processes involved in publishing a children's book (I'm not considering this a moral failing on his part but that doesn't mean you want to sink with him). There are many, many, MANY opportunities to work with self-publishing artists--probably most are bad but if that is how you want to get your feet wet then I'd try going with someone else.

That said...

Maybe you could educate him and he'll revise his (completely awesome?) story to a more standard 32 page spread and maybe he will be really reasonable to work with and end up selling millions. But, like @lee-white suggested: get a lot of money up front. And: get. a. contract.

Good luck!

Charlie Eve Ryan

I stay clear of self-pub authors too. Typically not worth the time, money or headache.

Every party I go to there is almost always someone who wants me to illustrate their book (that is "not written yet" or it is a "modern day classic") because you know "writing children's books is so easy" and they want to team up with me and have access to my "contacts in the biz."

I don't even know what to say to that except thank you, but I'm still building my few "contacts" and value them while trying to get my own work published, publishers want to pick their own illustrator for each project and if you want to write ... great, join SCBWI and learn more.

@Lee-White or @Will-Terry: How do you guys handle these conversations/request without losing your mind and offending anyone.

Sarah LuAnn

Honestly, the few times anyone has been really persistent about wanting me to illustrate a book for them, I quote them a price I think is fair and they just shut up. (I'm in the fortunate position of NOT needing to get any work I can at any price, and can turn down bad projects guilt-free, but I can see how doing that would be hard for others in a more difficult situation.) Most self publishing people don't really have any concept of how much time they are asking you to invest in their project and therefore aren't ready to give you a half decent fee.

natiwata

@Lee-White Great advice! I second all of this. I have not worked on nearly as many published books as Lee, but have done a couple and done a lot of freelance work. I'd also recommend not being shy about the price point you are comfortable working for (I usually state a range, or hourly if it's that type of job). Anyone serious about paying you fairly for your work won't be scared off by this, and if they are it's usually for the better.

mag

I've had a client like this one once. It was a great experience... However - never again! He didn't know much about the business, but also was a really stubborn person. It turned out into a nightmare project, as shinji said. I'm kinda glad for the experience, because now I know - do not take the job, if you're not sure about the client.
However, the meeting could help a bunch.

Lee White

Couple of answers to questions comments:

I don't generally recommend ever giving an hourly fee. The reason for this is that you are actually penalized as you get better (unless your rate dramatically increases). For example, when I graduated from school, it took me about 3-4 days to finish an illustration. It takes me about 4 hours now. So I would actually make less now (even with a big rate) than I did 10 years ago.
The way to answer these people is to be very nice. Don't ever be snappy towards any of them. Just state everything as facts. It's one of the areas I go into in the business class. Because we are so intertwined with art, the business side of things seems like it's harder than it actually is. If you had a product (for example: a new energy drink) and someone wanted to sell that energy drink, you would just say "it costs $x dollars to buy the product, etc". If the store didn't like it, it would be no big deal. They do that kind of interaction daily. But for artists it becomes "what if they think I'm mean" or "arrogant" or whatever. Just be business like and courteous.

Charlie Eve Ryan

@Lee-White It does feel like you are crushing their dream the way they look at you when you politely say thanks, but no and lead them in a different direction. I keep it together and try to encourage SCBWI etc but it is funny and frustrating the public perception of this field. That somehow it is easy. And you absolutely right, keep it business- like because once they start hearing numbers and fees they usually quickly lose interest. I never snap because you never know where one contact may lead and I'm not out to hurt people's feelings or discourage their dream. Looking forward to your business class, it could not come at a better time for me!

Will Terry

Most of it has been said already...I created this video to send to them...then realized it was overkill and it actually probably offends more than helps...

Right now I just say:

"I'm very flattered that you would think of me for your book. Right now I'm only working with large publishers for many reasons. I'm booked for the next few years (lie - but also truthful as my own projects are keeping me more than busy) right now and hope to continue this trend. Good luck with your book!

Cheers,
Will

If they have the nerve to try to convince me I send them the video I made...I never hear after that but often find another "dislike" on the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rdUKx17IF8

Lee White

@Will-Terry I can't wait to watch this!!

mag

@Will-Terry That's a really nice and polite response.
I found the video very helpful. I wouldn't probably send it to someone, but it was good for me to hear all that stuff.

Lee White

great video will!

Charlie Eve Ryan

Very classy and honest, informed response, @Will-Terry! Great job! I don't see how anyone could be offended by it.

bharris

@Chip-Valecek That sounds awful, and I'd prefer never to get into that situation... sometimes we just don't know. That's why having this forum and these teachers is sooo wonderful! I've watched this so many times! haha!

@Naroth-Kean I do have one book witha very small publisher (not my own) and she is doing the print on demand and it's much the same. I do plan to still go talk to him, who knows he may be loaded and I'd be happy with a large upfront fee! JK lol.

bharris

@Lee-White All those sound very right, but I'm still so new in this industry I'm not sure who I'm looking to work with if not locals that contact me. I'm not putting myself out there to the larger market yet feeling unready to. In the mean time I thought it would make sense to take on lower jobs for the sake of having more projects, but there are so many horror stories!

All published artists are shaking your heads saying "I remember that mistake in my career..."

I do like the large upfront fee, I wouldn't take a job like this if it's not worth my time so thank you for the range! I'm so looking forward to the business class!

bharris

@mattramsey This made me laugh! I'm willing to talk to him definitely, but I'm not swinging toward taking the job if there isn't some amazing reason. There are a lot of things (like practice) that would be way more worth my time to me instead of tons of work for little pay.

@Charlie-Eve-Ryan I'm noticing that! Everyone and their mother has a children's book! lol. I am a member so SCBWI and I find it's resources helpful, though not as helpful as SVS.

@Sarah-LuAnn I'm in that same position and I like the idea of doing it that way.

@natiwata I agree, thank you!

@mag lol! Yes. Thank you!

@Will-Terry That video was so helpful.I was planning to use it just in case! Wish we could all say the same!

bharris

Just read the story and talked to the guy more. While it is a good story he seriously needs an editor, also it is a story for his daughter so it seems like more of something to circulate with family and friends. Money wise it'd be around $12,000 and I'd be taking a hit and it would take a few more moths than I'm used to.... Knowing that do I just cancel the meeting or meet for the practice?

Chip Valecek

@bharris Is this your main source of income?

Lynn Larson

@bharris I would meet with him. For experience for you, and following through with your commitment You may not work for him, but if he's talking with someone that needs an artist, he may remember the positive meeting. What do you mean by taking a hit? whatever you do, don't cut your prices