A little disturbed

frankiiij

@Kat Respect! Thank you for your insight as well. I am in total agreement. I too appreciate the work that SVS doers to keep the forums and challenges going. I too learn a lot from all the critiques. Which is why I think I get frustrated when I hear mixed messages that pass some and hold back others.

Thank you for your time and patience. Much Love. ONE!

frankiiij

@Rachel-Horne Respect! Thank you for you insight. I agree that there is a level of distancing and ability to hear negative feedback that artist need to have. Personally the feedback is what I am searching for. In the context with the thread, the frustration lies with the miscommunication and or disconnect with the the prompt to the judging. I do not question their ability or professionalism.

My question would be does their credibility and or professionalism omit them from critiques of their own contest and judging methods?

Much love. ONE!

frankiiij

@Lucky-Platt Respect. Thank you for your insight and inspiration. I too am appreciative for this site and for the podcast. I hope that is not questioned in my frustration. As a leader in other aspects of life I just don’t think leaders should be above communication with the community. I also don’t believe in using my credibility or experience to deflect someone’s concerns with my process. As a leader I do not believe in deflecting someone’s concerns with their inabilities to avoid accountability of my mistakes. In addition, as much as i love this site and the podcast I do not believe in deflecting my voice in fear of losing the good aspects of svs. I believe in a healthy community communication can enhance and create more of the good, in this case, the svs community. Hope this makes sense. I also hope this doesn’t sound abbrasive.

Much love. ONE!

Braxton

@Ryan-Ehr Just wanted to give you a shout-out that yours was probably my favorite piece this month, and my money was on you being one of the winners.

Coley

@Braxton @Ryan-Ehr samsies that’s a fantastic piece. Still broken hearted it didn’t get in Lol

frankiiij

@Braxton Co-sign

JennyJones

Just as a point of clarification... my frustration is not about not winning contests. It is more about desiring feedback in hopes of improvement.

The recent critique format is a lot more competition oriented and much less than they used to be about advice for improvement. The current criticism is purposefully short to be able to fit all of the entries chosen. They have been “ say one thing about...this round and one thing the next”. The previous format included draw overs and a solid critique of each of the selected pieces. There were fewer pieces chosen, but those pieces got a thorough going over. That was always helpful to me. I learned a great deal from the draw overs no matter the image.

I realize I am in the minority for not preferring the current format. I remember a poll when the format first began that had a super high approval rating and a really minuscule disapproval percentage. I want to say it was like 2%“no.” I would love to see a few draw over critiques or significant feedback on anyone’s work. It would not matter if it was related to a contest or not.

Anyway...that’s my 2 cents. Again, not trying to be a “hater” because I am truly not. I love SVS and the forums. I value Will, Jake, and Lee’s opinions as well as those given by my fellow artists. When I had the choice to make about school, I chose from fear and got a useless degree. But now I’m choosing my passion without the ability to GO back to school. Trying to learn, level up, and make up for 20 years of lost time.

@JennyJones
I didn't think that you were negative at all, and I can say that I agree with not only everything you said here, but also the way you said it.

This format doesn't suit me either, and I think that's ok. I've made it a point since the poll you mention (as part of the minuscule disapproval percentage) to go back to the old critiques more often than even concerning myself with attending the current live critiques, because those are so helpful to me even to rewatch. We all have to acknowledge our needs to move forward. I would prefer if they chose the two winners and talked about them in depth, a half hour for each. In one of the old critiques, Lee White said that at first when he looked at the image (a really well done image of one of the three little pigs in a living room with the shadow of a wolf encroaching) it seemed like it was fine, but as he really dug in and studied it, it became clear what wasn't working. He had so many interesting changes that made the image function better! so it wasn't about this split-second impression of the image that the contest is now. I am all for the arbitrary choice for a winner, and no hints at what made them win! I mean, I can definitely see the value in producing an image that immediately gets noticed and showing which ones have that effect and which don't, but as a student I am trying to figure out the functional aspect of images for picture books specifically, so when I produce an image for the contest it's usually meant to be part of a series. I can't just make images that catch an AD's eye and then not be able to produce functional images.

I know I can't neglect doing classwork to get the contest entry done so if i'm going to continue entering I have to make sure it's not taking over. But I know I need to participate in something regularly, so most of the time it will probably be the svs contest.

As far as other contests, I am not aware of them so much yet, but if I really wanted to get into this contest or any contest more to really try to win, I think I would try acting as a judge and choose 16 to see what it's like. My initial criteria would probably be that split second answer to whether I 'like' the image. And I was always taught that that is no basis whatsoever for a critique. In the graphic design program, if you said you liked someone's work in a critique you had to back up and really think it through better. So yeah my conclusion about this contest has been like yours, where i'm not worried so much about winning or losing, but just how it fits into my education, something I'm in complete control of right now and need to direct on my own.

JennyJones

@carolinebautista Well said. I agree with your views 100%. I have often gone back to those older critiques and rewatched. I particularly loved the one you mentioned with the 3 Little Pigs for the same reasons you mentioned. Sending encouragement as you are leveling up. Keep up the good efforts.

Heather Boyd

Hey -so lots of people have replied so I'll keep mine short (I hope). Disturbing is a strong word- I would have used concerned or puzzled -because sometimes I am puzzled. Like recently for the robot contest skill got in because, it was amazing! but I didn't read the concept quickly or at all until it was explained. And there is definitely a super focus on concept and it gets repeated constantly as it should so I was puzzled why it got in when even the judges didn't know what was happening. Other times I don't read concepts well or even quickly but the judges do, so then I am puzzled again.

For this past isolation I was surprised Lee wasn't taking part because it was his baby lols and that positive perspective he encouraged would have helped bring some balance. But having a new face judge was cool.

I appreciated getting feedback but it was a bit hard to take because I felt the rest of my parts got overlooked and the "water" element which I agree was not clear (ha ha in my head it was) distracted away from the rest (which I worked really hard to work out). I tried to rework it after the feedback -but it didn't work out and I ended messing it up. So feedback was still good but I would have also liked a positive -but totally understand lack of time and so many contestants.

Ryan Ehr

I agree that I miss the draw-overs from earlier contests. I wasn't a member, but watching those critiques were more useful and they become a more helpful curriculum to future students. Maybe the judges pick 2 top pieces each month to go deeper. Then pick 2 pieces from folks much earlier on the journey (a ways away from professional work) with a lot more that could be improved. Even if they critique someone with a disimilar skill set, you learn a lot that way.

@Ryan-Ehr I admit that although I don't mind the idea of voting, the experience of that format got me thinking that for later students the discussion of voting during the critiques would end up a little bit distracting. I'd already been listing to so many of the old critiques by then that I couldn't help thinking of it that way.

One thing I want to say is that if you think about this contest and the way it was set up for May 2020, it was a prompt that made a bunch of artists mostly in isolation themselves collectively think about an important idea everyone in the world was and still is grappling with. So for me, most of its value is as a visible and collective effort. I am still in isolation and putting my work up in the thread with so many different takes on the word has been one of my favorite parts of the quarantine. So as long as we can show each other our entries, I am happy to participate whenever I can and really hope they continue, regardless of the format of the live sessions.

xin li

@Ryan-Ehr you defintely got the audience award. Your piece is my favorite too. It describe what we just been through all together for the last 3 months so well - social distancing (in the country I live now, the rule was 2 meters distance in public, so the socializing scene is pretty much what your pengiuns do, and it made me feel pretty isolated emotionally). Perhaps if the prompt was "social distancing", you would be the winner of the month . But again, for the last 3 months, I think of "social distancing" "and isolation" as more or less synonyms.

Like many others here, I do have a possitive assication with the word "isolation" personally as well, and the top 16 pieces this time was very different from what I would have picked. But I also understand how people have very different association with words.

@dafoota I understand your frustration. For me the monthly contest has been a way of creating new portfolio pieces, or even just generate ideas for portfolio pieces. I have a piece I made from one of the last year's contest, I loved the illustration when I made it, and it was not picked to be the top 16 (I was dissapointed of course). I still love the concept of the piece this year, so I did a re-paint (same concept, better tehnique, and better character design), and used it in my portfolio. I think one super difficult thing for us artists in our earliy career is to filter out what critique is relavant to me, and what is not. If there is something in your piece you love, hold on to it.

Rachel Horne

@dafoota well said

gavpartridge

@StudioLooong Very well said! I thought there were several pieces this month that if you had to choose one word to sum them up, it would have been 'content' or 'peaceful' or even 'fun', but definately not isolation. Isolation can have positive outcomes, but on face value it is not a positive thing.

frankiiij

@xin-li Respect! Thank you for your perspective. I will work on changing my perspective for my ideas in critiques. I will try my best. I would feel bad if the judges are discouraged because of my communication as that is not my intention. Ultimately, I think I am just asking for more stability and consistency for the community in the context of live-critiques. This was never a shot to question anyone’s credibility or biases. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

Much Love. ONE!

frankiiij

@Heather-Boyd RESPECT! thank you for sharing your thoughts and your perspective. I think I am still a little more, with emotion, over puzzled and into the disturbed/troubled point. I have a hard time with the inconsistency of using a point to promote a piece and using the same point to not promote it. Or even disregard the a point of inspection because the artwork is awesome. Especially, if it the disregarded point of inspection in “sticking to the prompt.”

Maybe it is because I am still puzzled at what the judges expect and I’m voicing my opinion to better understand. I’m still not quite sure what the outcome I am hoping for is. I don’t want anyone discouraged or feeling hated on. After all these wonderful and positive people communicated, I can see that I prolly should just let it be and chill some.

Thank you again for your time and patience. Much love. ONE!

carlianne

@dafoota okay so, I came here late and had a lot of reading to do lol but I read through every single post, I'm hoping this is a slightly different answer for you. So first of all I also miss the old method, I joined a bit after they changed, but I also go back to watch the old crits because I really value paint overs and the critique and we don't really get that anymore. I also sometimes worry that this format feels more like a popularity contest than an art contest which feels awkward. It would be interesting to see a new vote now that they've been doing it this way for some time

Regarding the concept vs artistry It's a hard thing to tackle, but I'm going to try.

What you're asking is really, "what makes good art?" Obviously there is subjectivity but there must be something you can hold onto. IMO there are two routes to an amazing piece of art. There is an amazing concept but not much technical skill in the art. Or an amazing technical skill, with less of an interesting concept. Or the magic balance in the middle that has both. Sometimes a piece can be drawn with stick figures but resonate so well that it is loved (think like some web comics). Or be so masterfully painted that even if there is no story it impacts you emotionally, or with awe and wonder. (Like magical girl paintings on Instagram)

Now with illustration as a field I do think NORMALLY that concept is more important than technical skill. However the piece you refer to last month was MASTERFUL in regards to technical skill. So I do understand why it made it to the sweet sixteen. But the reason it didn't win imo is due to concept. But there is not going to be a line in the sand to follow here. As a student I think we should do our best to have great concepts while refining our technical skill.

Regarding the "positive isolation" statement. What I believe Will was trying to say is. If you do a negative emotion with Isolation you can get away with a person alone in a space. But if you make it positive with a person alone, it doesn't read as isolation unless you put more story telling into it, you have to work harder is what I think he said. For example, Braden showing a group of people in the bg, with the main character all alone. The child was clearly isolated, but not negatively so.

The two pieces that won both hard darker less "happy" lighting to them which I think helped. When I look at them I get an emotional reaction that is a little more quiet and moody which I associate more with Isolation than I do bright and happy.

I also loved the penguin piece but I could see how the penguins felt a bit like a community rather than isolated but it was in my top 16 as well.

I participate in the monthly contests to get portfolio pieces. If I get into the top 16 awesome, but that's not why I'm doing it. I decide what my portfolio needs and use the prompt to help me make a piece that will fill that hole. The deadline helps motivate me to finish. The competition pushes me to push myself out of my comfort zone and try things I wouldn't have before.

Anyway hope that makes sense and helps.

nadyart

@Ryan-Ehr I must admit that I also thought your piece was a very strong contender!

I understand that the concept of my own piece was not portraying the prompt very clear. I do love to have it in my portfolio though :).

I really appreciate the challenges and the time the instructors invest each time.

Personally, I have been less fond of the voting. I liked it much better when the judges decided who’d win. Not because I don’t value the opinions of the voters - I do. But when looking through the monthly contest topic, there are always pieces that are very popular. Not all of these pieces get selected by the professional judges - which is totally fine. But then when the voting starts, the roles are turned again, and the voters decide. The outcomes seem a tad doubtful to me, because it depends so much on who can be available at the Live session, can someone remain online for the complete voting session or has he/she voted a handful of times before they need to go offline, is the voting working for everyone consistently, etc.

In the end it is of course about having the chance to practice creating pieces around a prompt and creating valuable portfolio pieces, that is the most important.
However the current voting structure makes less sense to me than the judges making their selection and narrowing it down to 2 winners. Just my two cents

Jeremy Ross

Hi @nadyart and @carlianne, perhaps we put a poll on the forum to see if people prefer the original way of judging versus the current student voting method?