Own Voices



  • @kimchizerbe said in Own Voices:

    I don't believe the "Own Voices" movement is about preventing stories of diversity, but rather, it is serving as an opportunity to give under represented groups a chance to tell their stories from their perspective.

    Right. And also preventing a person who doesn't fit in that particular exact category from telling said story.

    This movement is happening because for sooooooo long, the conversation in the arts has been absolutely dominated by white, heteronormative, straight, men.

    Have you heard of Broadway?*

    is a form of cultural/soci-economic/gender/etc. appropriation.

    What do you mean by this? Do you mean that a White female author who writes a story that has a young Black girl (for example) in it is appropriating the Black girl's culture? If so, Ok. I'll refrain from giving my opinion on that opinion. If not, what do you mean?

    What it DOES mean, is that I should exercise caution before telling the story of a child of color growing up in abject poverty because that is a life experience I cannot adeptly speak to with authenticity.

    You seem to be saying that a Black person who grew up in poverty can't "authentically" write about a poor White person. What if they were neighbors? Skin tone, for you, would make any writing about shared day-to-day struggles in the same socio-economic and geographical location ring untrue?

    What if a Black person who grew up poor DREW a poor White child? Surely we can agree that there would be no "problematic" issues with that....right?

    But THOSE is not the type of stories I believe the "Own Voices" movement is trying to tell.

    Ok. I would imagine that they are (at least for some), but fine.

    Of course anyone creative can imagine what it may have felt like to be picked on for being gay, or fat, or black, or disabled. But if you are none of those things, you don't have an honest place from which to tell that story. You may accidentally get some of it right, but wouldn't an authentic voice from someone who has not had the same opportunities to share that story be more powerful?

    I don't know. Depends on how well they write I suppose. All things being equal: sure? I don't think anyone would argue that, again, all writing skills being equal, a person who lived an experience could tell a "better" story than someone writing about someone experiencing that experience (e.g., autobiography vs. biography).

    Wouldn't that be an opportunity to learn and grow? And perhaps more importantly for the AUDIENCE (who has been alarmingly missing from this discourse) wouldn't be awesome to see yourself represented by someone who is like you? THAT is what this idea is really supposed to be about. Representation

    Alright, sure. I can admit that I may be unique in this but I have never, ever, finished a book and then decided to do some research on the author to see if I should enjoy the story more, or get more meaning and impact out of the story based on the author's gender (sometimes this can be deduced by the name), race, socio-economic background, sexual orientation, or abled status.

    In my view art is either good or it isn't. Art is impactful or it isn't. The idea that an artist can't authentically create stories and imagery on a variety of diverse issues removes the "art" from his/her title. In other words, that is one of the very skills that makes an artist an artist.

    Also, I hope before you spout off

    Hmmmm?

    about "gay, asian muslim men" or "transgender lesbian black disabled women" as some sort of "holy grail" of diversity you stop to remember that those labels ARE attributed to and DO affect REAL people. Some people don't have the privilege to only wear those labels to write or illustrate a story.

    I feel like you might be projecting something but I don't want to presume and get into some kind of internet fight. I will say that I did not suggest that no one really is/are those things.

    I can PROMISE you without a doubt that anyone identifying as any combination of those labels you tossed so carelessly

    Ok. How could I have more carefully set them down gently?

    The transgender lesbian disabled black women has to worry about that building having wheelchair access.

    Probably yes.

    She has to worry about getting mugged because of who she loves.

    Now you are just pulling my leg. This part was meant to be levity, right? You can't seriously expect me to believe that there is a contingent of criminals who, not only can tell who someone loves, but also specifically target people based on that criterion.

    I can assure you she doesn't see herself as some coveted intersectional Holy Grail.

    I think you missed my point here.

    many people here seem to be missing is that you simply CAN'T know all the myriad and nuanced ways the daily life of those different than you are impacted by being different.

    You are right, you can't. We are in 100% agreement you and I. And literally** no author/illustrator of any race, orientation, ideology, etc, believes that either.

    Maybe this topic is not as relevant in children's media

    Why wouldn't it be?

    *Hopefully it is clear that this is a joke but the idea that there doesn't exist (or that there hasn't for "soooo long") a massive diversity in the arts--gender, race, sexual orientation--doesn't seem, to me, to ring true. Would be interested in what others think.
    **And by "literally" I, of course, mean: figuratively.



  • @jimsz said in Own Voices:

    The same goes for authors. Guess what, Rowlings was never a 10 year old boy wizard yet she wrote Harry Potter.

    Fair point.

    substitute "white or caucasian" with whatever other race you are being told

    Although I can see where this wouldn't always work, I do find myself automatically doing this.


  • SVS OG

    In the end I don't care if you're a black gay woman or pudgy white guy with a mullet...story is good, art is good...I'll buy it....don't think these small children are looking at a picture book and analyzing it's deeper hidden meaning.....most picture books have what..500 words...people are over thinking this....it's the bottom line...you better sell some books



  • Just wanted to mention a side note... has anyone checked out the #MSWL tag on Twitter yesterday? Wow, literally every agent mentions they're looking for diverse books and #ownvoices. Which is great. It's such a hot topic right now (obviously, this thread a prime example of that!). Unfortunately, when everyone says the same thing (and doesn't mention what ELSE they're looking for), I find that the whole purpose (of MSWL - Manuscript Wish List) to be defeated. I'd imagine that even for the people with #ownvoices manuscripts to find it frustrating - I mean, it's not really narrowing down for you which agents to submit to, when ALL of them say they're open to it!

    @smceccarelli I hope you resolved your original problem or at least had a great conversation about it with your agent. I feel bad for you that your original thread seems to have been totally taken over!



  • This is a huge topic. I was asking my friend the same question a month or two ago, and we gave each other a high five as we don't think of ethnicity when we design a character. I honestly just draw personalities. Yes some would recommend diversity while some say no. I would stick with what I believe is true and hopefully people we see the same. I would pick the one that has the most personality and make people not to think of ethnicity at first impression. I hope this helps.


  • SVS OG

    At the end of the day I think one of the most crucial words is ‘authenticity’…which illustrator is going to make the story feel real and the characters come alive to the audience, so that they can empathise and feel the same struggles as the characters. A lot of different factors are going to come into that choice - not least the quality of art, and the storytelling, as well as their “own voice” distilled from their overall background, influences and experiences of life. I don’t think that’s going to automatically include or exclude illustrators purely on the basis of race/gender etc. Making sure people of all backgrounds have the opportunity to tell those stories is of course something to aim for.

    On a side note, thinking about the actual content of my picture book collection, you wouldn’t think you could have such a politically sophisticated discussion about them! (my collection is aimed at the under 5’s though)…it’s full of animals being friends, lost library books, tigers losing their smile, two boys digging a hole, a dog getting dirty, lost cats, assorted nursery rhymes, tigers coming to tea…I mean it’s all cute, and the modern ones are ethnically diverse when there are people in them, but it’s not charged with the racial issues that adults are more tuned into. That doesn’t mean it’s not important to have this discussion - of course it is - but one of the things I like about picture books is that they can talk about timeless topics that are simply ‘human’, by layering them into stories about animals or aliens or whatever.


  • SVS OG

    @Dulcie you said what I was thinking (with much more grace) I think kids need to be able to stay kids for as long as they can without having to worry about this stuff....



  • I think I am just going to draw robots from now on. Just sidestep this whole thing.



  • I think all responses here have been insightful - casting lights on different aspects of the issue. And no, I do not think the topic has been sidetracked - all aspects are related. I am at SCBWI NY, and there was a keynote speaker addressing this topic for illustrators - it is really a hot button right now, my agent was right. It is not so much about not being able to illustrate cultures other than your own, it is more about making sure that these are correctly represented, in a respectful and considerate and truthful way. And is also, in a very big way, about being authentic, being true to who you are, where you come from and your experience of the world. This is for me the biggest take-home message.
    So art directors nowadays is simply not likely to hire an illustrator to illustrate a story that has a distinct ethnic or cultural connotation unless the illustrator is either from that cultural space or has a style that deeply resonates with that particular culture - there is therefore little point in putting such depictions into your portfolio, though you can freely do it for your personal work (with the risk, however, of misprepresentation). It does not mean that you cannot include different ethnicities in a story that has no specific cultural resonance. Several examples were made, and the books discussed were really embedded in a specific cultural universe - Mexican folklore or Native American family life. Clearly stories that I, for one, would be completely unfitting to illustrate anyhow. In this context, I can understand the "own voices" movement a lot better.



  • @smceccarelli said in Own Voices:

    It is not so much about not being able to illustrate cultures other than your own, it is more about making sure that these are correctly represented, in a respectful and considerate and truthful way.

    Several examples were made, and the books discussed were really embedded in a specific cultural universe - Mexican folklore or Native American family life.

    I would imagine that this would seem reasonable to most people.

    Thank you for the insights/clarification!


  • SVS OG

    Totally off topic, but I so wish I was at the conference this year. I feel like so many of my internet friends are there and I wish I could meet them! And it sounds like you're getting lots of good info. If it wouldn't be too much to ask, maybe when you go home you could make a thread sharing your biggest insights/lessons learned, for those of us who couldn't make it.



  • @Sarah-LuAnn I will definitely do that - it is quite exciting to be here!



  • I spoke with one of my friends today who got her YA book published, and I asked her about this topic. She said that it is one of the biggest topics right now in publishing, and she has had to bite her tongue a few times with her agent commenting on her book. She is half white and half asian, and designed her main character around herself. Her agent and the publisher both tried getting her to change her main character from half white and half asian, and remove the reference to her having freckles, because as they put it "asians don't have freckles", she replied by telling them that the character was based off of how she looks, and she does have freckles.

    So to be fair, this isn't easier or harder for one group of people. Everyone is seeing this trend as a bit of a hard pill to swallow.


  • SVS OG

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56UfBZzaM0w Will Terry and Tyrus Goshay little bit on this subject



  • What a great topic and great comments - I'm not sure if my comments will further this discussion but I felt prompted to try. I don't speak for SVS - these are my personal feelings. We are artists. Art isn't safe. Art doesn't always follow social norms but often challenges them. It is our job to tell visual and written stories. Stories are based on our own personal experiences and imaginations -but we can't know what it's like to be each character we illustrate because most of the time they have similar but different experiences. If we limit ourselves by illustrating only that which we have experienced we will cease to explore, innovate, imagine, create, conjure, describe, relate, depict, conceive, fantasize, and visualize - the essential components of art making. Art doesn't have rules and constraints to prepare and package it for consumption - it must remain unrestrained and unrestricted. We don't all value art the same - so how can we value creativity that conforms to a set of guidelines? If we self censor by creating only that which we have personally experienced - we would have to turn down 99% of all assignments offered. -Will Terry



  • I have my personal opinion about this case and it coincides with yours! http://bigpaperwriter.com/blog/cultural-identity-essay is talking about culture as a way to identify your country and nation!



  • @smceccarelli thankfully chefs do culture appropriation since who knows when and we get to taste their diverse flavor of cultural appropriation all the time. What about individual appropriation? How do you live in an ethnically diverse world and not appropriate from others you live and interact with? Sounds like a super killjoy. I love art and I don't live in Platos cave.



  • @Tyson said in Own Voices:

    @smceccarelli thankfully chefs do culture appropriation since who knows when and we get to taste their diverse flavor of cultural appropriation all the time. What about individual appropriation? How do you live in an ethnically diverse world and not appropriate from others you live and interact with? Sounds like a super killjoy. I love art and I don't live in Platos cave.

    I would love someone who feels strongly against "cultural appropriation" to give me a concrete definition of just exactly what they mean. The definition I have that I THINK some people mean is, frankly, daft, sickening, and completely against the experiences all humans have been having for the last several thousand years.

    But I'll refrain from telling everyone how I really feel....



  • I really appreciate how everyone has tuned in on this conversation - each adding a new dimension and new perspective on a topic which is multi-faceted and controversial. This, I believe, is exactly how we should face any discussion about art and society: openly and respectfully sharing our opinions.
    This is clearly a major topic in the publishing industry today (meanwhile, I have met two "sensitivity readers" - a profession that I did not know ever existed before). Still, I think it is important to put it into perspective: I believe it is a topic only or mainly in the USA (which is the major market for English-speaking literature, so it is not inconsequential). Identity politics and identity discussion have shaped and continue to shape Amerian society in many different ways, not all of them fully healthy. Racism and discrimination exists everywhere, but I believe that insisting on defending the integrity of an "own" culture (be it ethnic or sexual in nature) is not a weapon against it - quite the opposite: it is a way to fuel it.
    But, we are commercial artists, and the concerns of publishers (assuming we are interested in working for them) are our concerns too. I just hope they will get over the "walking on egg-shells" feeling soon.
    On my side, I will continue to be amused and not offended when Italians are depicted as "pizza-pasta-mamma-mafia", in pop literature, British as tea-loving aristocrats and Swiss as dull but prissy farmers. And the character of the dumb blond will not send me into a feminist rant either. Admittedly, being associated with three different cultures and three different professions helps to put everything in perspective 😉

    And now, just to put more fuel into the fire of this discussion, this is something that was on my FB feed today - not sure if they have a point - their analysis seems self-serving:

    Rebel girls video



  • I see both sides of this argument and maybe because I am biracial but don't really view people in colors/race but see it come up a ton. On one hand I think diversity is great regardless of what the race the illustrator happens to be. I think it is a great idea to include a multicultural scene especially since some races are definitely under represented clearly by the numbers in children's books. However I also get the argument that one authenticity should be valued vs just painting someone a color or worse really not hitting the mark and it become offensive out of ignorance. Also certain races will definitely be able to tell their stories better, there are racial nuances that someone will not just understand if they are not apart of that cultural /race. And there is also an economic factor to consider, I don't know the numbers but I believe Will Terry even mentioned this field is dominated by white males. It seems economically injustice to not allow illustrators if they are just as talented to illustrate "their stories" if that makes sense.


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